Sober Living Stories
Welcome to the "Sober Living Stories" podcast, a platform built on the power of personal stories. Each Tuesday, Jessica Stipanovic, your host, shines a spotlight on individuals who have undergone remarkable life transformations to inspire hope in listeners worldwide.
Each guest shares their story giving examples of bold beginnings disguised as endings and life lessons that teach how the darkest moments often hold the key to unlocking the brightest light.
This podcast inspires positive life changes. Whether you're sober curious, living an alcohol-free lifestyle, have overcome a challenge and lived to tell about it, or support someone who wants to shed a habit in light of a new one, our episodes promise to leave you feeling understood, hopeful, and motivated to create meaningful transformations in your life.
Join us for powerful new episodes every Tuesday where the most difficult life experiences serve to uplift and inspire. Regardless of your background or belief system, the "Sober Living Stories" podcast is your ultimate destination for uplifting narratives where hope shines from the most unexpected places.
In addition to featuring our weekly guests, each month on the "Sober Living Stories" podcast, we have the privilege of sitting down with a new author, delving into their story and the wisdom they've shared in their book.
Here's the exciting part: their book becomes the giveaway for that month.
Tune in every Tuesday for brand-new episodes and your chance to win the gift of a transformed life.
Sober Living Stories
Embracing Sobriety, Spirituality, and Self-Improvement: Barb Nangle's Story
After years of attending self-help groups and battling addictions, listen to how my guest Barb found healing and spirituality in 12-step recovery programs. Join us as she shares her sobriety story in this powerful episode.
From her transformative experience in Codependents Anonymous and Adult Children of Alcoholics, Barb's anecdotes and wisdom shed light on the power of self-awareness and the importance of support groups in overcoming challenges.
Discover how spirituality played a crucial role in Barb's recovery, even without belief in God, and how it can enrich your journey. Don't miss this episode filled with inspiring stories and practical strategies for personal growth, setting boundaries, and living a purposeful life.
In the first chapter, we discuss her early days of substance abuse to her ultimate realization of her codependent behavior. Barb shares her journey from agnosticism to developing her conception of a higher power. The impact was so profound she turned it into her life's work and founded Higher Power Coaching and Consulting, LLC. Discover how these programs provide a unique approach to healing, offering a path to spirituality.
In the final chapter, Jessica and Barb share the power of personal responsibility and how it plays an important role in maintaining long-term recovery. Learn strategies for fostering self-reliance in others and setting boundaries in various aspects of life. Listen further to discover how to find serenity in your daily life by accepting imperfections in yourself and others.
Barb Nangle is a boundaries coach, speaker, author, Founder of Higher Power Coaching and Consulting, LLC, and host, of "Fragmented to Whole: Life Lessons from 12 Step Recovery."
FREE RESOURCE: This page on my website has a free article, handout, and link to the playlist of 30+ podcast episodes specifically about boundaries.
https://www.instagram.com/higherpowercoaching/; https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbnangle/
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Your story matters.
Welcome to the Sober Living Stories podcast. This podcast is dedicated to sharing stories of sobriety. We shine a spotlight on individuals who have faced the challenges of alcoholism and addiction and are today living out their best lives sober. Each guest has experienced incredible transformation and are here to share their story with you. I'm Jessica Stepanovich, your host. Join me each week as guests from all walks of life share their stories to inspire and provide hope to those who need it most. Welcome to another episode of the Sober Living Stories podcast. My guest today is Barb Nangle. She found freedom in 12-step recovery and she's here today to share her personal story. She also went on to found Higher Power Coaching and Consulting and has her own podcast called Fragmented to Whole Life Lessons from 12-Step Recovery. Welcome, barb, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Jessica.
Speaker 2:I'm really excited to be here.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of different ways that people can find freedom from addictions. And you know, 12-step recovery is but one. But listeners today who have ever wondered about how or why or what. I think they're going to get some answers. So I'm excited to hear your personal story. So you can just take it from here and start from the beginning.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I have been numbing in some capacity since I was a baby, so I sucked my thumb until I was 10. I'm not sure what happened between 10 and 13. I started smoking cigarettes at 13, weed at 14, drinking at 16. And I think the switch sort of flipped for me to become a compulsive overeater in my early 20s. I drank abusively until I was in my early 40s and I just sort of stopped. It wasn't a decision that I made. And then I continued to drink after that, but maybe only got drunk like a couple of times. But I haven't had any alcohol at all for I think six and a half years or something like that.
Speaker 2:I started therapy at a probably about 15 and I was 52 when I got into recovery. So that's 37 years of therapy. It wasn't continuous, but close. I've read a gajillion self-help books. I did workshops, workbooks, retreats, spiritual groups, physical fitness health nutritionists, like you name it. So I was always trying and striving and wanting to grow. You know, meanwhile, like abusing substances and stuff that whole time and that sort of waxed and waned over time.
Speaker 2:And then in the spring of 2015, I hit a codependent bottom and, if people don't know, I didn't know what that word was even though I was very well read in the self-help genre so codependent. People are typically completely fixated on everything outside themselves, what other people are thinking, doing, saying, trying to rescue, help, fix other people. They're fixated on what other people think of them that sort of thing. And what happened was I had, in the fall, volunteered to lead a project at my church serving homeless people and around that time a homeless guy named Dan started coming to my church as a parishioner and he and I became very friendly. Homeless guy named Dan started coming to my church as a parishioner and he and I became very friendly and I felt like, oh, this was a gift because I'm meeting a homeless person as a friend, so that when I'm serving them they're homeless people to me, not like the homeless. And a couple months into our friendship there was a snowstorm.
Speaker 2:I live in New Haven, connecticut, and I invited Dan to stay at my home which I now know is not normal behavior and he did. And then he did another time and another time. Within a few weeks he was practically living with me and soon I felt trapped in my own home. One day I was in therapy talking about him and in mid-sentence I stopped and I went oh my gosh, do you think I need to go to Al-Anon? And my therapist was like, yes, and if people don't know, al-anon is a recovery program for loved ones of alcoholics. And the reason that loved ones of alcoholics need a program is because what they think to do naturally to help their loved one is usually counterproductive. And then they end up focusing entirely on the alcoholic and not at all about themselves and they neglect themselves and they try to control the other person and they can't, and all that stuff. So I knew about Al-Anon. I'll tell you, jessica, I don't know what I put into Google, but I was looking for Al-Anon and I came across the word codependent and I was like whoa, what? What is this word?
Speaker 2:I started going to Codependents Anonymous, almost immediately felt a sense of relief and I think it was because, like I knew there was something that described me. I saw that there was recovery. I met other people like me and I very quickly said to someone I think I need to be reparented. But I didn't know that reparenting was a thing I think. I thought I made that up, I don't know.
Speaker 2:And then soon after I went to Cape Cod, massachusetts, to visit a couple of my friends, one of whom had been in Alcoholics Anonymous for many years and she had raved about how drastically her life had been turned around because of it. So I said, hey, I'm going to CODA. And she was like, oh, that's great, let me see if I can find a CODA meeting while you're here and we'll go together. Well, she couldn't, but she found an ACA meeting which I knew of as ACOA. They're the same, that's adult children of alcoholics, but it's actually called adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families. I never heard the and dysfunctional families part, so I didn't identify. I also kind of like I feel like I knew about it as long as I could remember, but I wondered why do adult children of alcoholics need a program? So I didn't feel like I qualified, but I like I'll go for you and I walk in the meeting with her. And they say I walk in the meeting with her and they say we reparent ourselves. And I was like what? And then they read the list of the 14 traits of an adult child, which is affectionately called the laundry list, and I was bowled over. My friend tells me that I sobbed the whole meeting. I don't remember that, but I bought the literature from the program, came home to New Haven, connecticut, started going to a meeting immediately. A few weeks later, a Friday night, women's meeting started. I still go to that meeting.
Speaker 2:A few weeks later, I started doing the 12 steps with a small group of women. I continued to go to CODA for a year and after a year I realized I wasn't seeing and feeling the kind of recovery in that program, that I was in ACA and it felt like maybe a 75% fit, whereas ACA was 100% fit, so I decided I was going to drop that. That turned out to be a higher powered moment, because one of the women I was doing the 12 steps with had started talking about her eating behavior and thinking and that she started going to Overeaters Anonymous and I didn't know that she was kind of trying to get me into the program, but she was and I ended up hitting a bottom with sugar. So I woke up on Wednesday, april 20, 2016, feeling like I was being internally electrocuted by sugar. So I texted this friend yeah, I know it was just and I texted her and I said listen, I just have to tell somebody that just today I am not having sugar. I've not had sugar since that date.
Speaker 2:So this past Saturday was my eight year. We call it abstinence and recovery. So I started going to Overeaters Anonymous. Three days later I went to a workshop with her and I didn't know that I was going to a workshop. I thought it was going to a regular weekly support meeting. And the first speaker said I'm down over 135 pounds for over 30 years. And I was like I'm listening Because I had worked for Weight Watchers and the statistics there are that 95% of people gain their weight back and anyone I'd ever met that had lost an enormous amount of weight, like that guy, had had bypass surgery and nine of the 10 of those people had gained their weight back. So I knew this guy's got something. And then he proceeded to do a presentation on the cycle of addiction as it applies to eating and I was like, oh my God, I'm a compulsive overeater. I had no idea.
Speaker 1:So let's just pause for a second, because there's so, there's so much there and I, I there's a couple of things that stood out to me because I agree with you 100%. Like I had not heard the word codependency but I never attributed it to my life or myself for probably the past 20 years. But if people get caught because I guess I was caught on the word I'm like well, but if you can look beyond the word and kind of investigate that. It's really incredible what comes out.
Speaker 1:And so I encourage listeners, if they're caught on a word that they don't think applies to them, to do some, because I mean anywhere you can find freedom from you know your past or how you were raised or whatever your scenario and story is, but I'd like to ask you to another thing. You talked about adult children, of alcoholics. Now, did you come from an alcoholic home?
Speaker 2:No, so that's why I didn't identify with it. But when I heard and dysfunctional families, I was like oh, okay.
Speaker 1:So let's pause there for listeners, because you're telling us that you found a lot of similarities and some solutions in adult children of alcoholics. However, there's a little disclaimer caveat. There end dysfunctional families, so you don't necessarily have to come from an alcoholic family to find freedom in alcoholic children children of alcohol.
Speaker 2:That's incredible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because you know, again it's like if we don't fit into the title we think we can't use the tools and I think you're showing us that we can. So yeah, go ahead and another thing, too. Just quickly, the abstinence from food, as we had talked about before we hit record, it's like you know. Abstinence from alcohol if you're a true alcoholic, you're going to, you're going to win, you're going to come out on top.
Speaker 1:I didn't know it crossed over to sugar addictions and such like that, but those are just as real. So when you have abstinence from those target foods, you also? Can succeed in long-term long-term recovery.
Speaker 2:So go ahead. It's great long-term, long-term recovery. So go ahead, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I want to say something about ACA. So the program was actually started by Alateens that outgrew the program and realized they didn't want to go to Al-Anon because their parents were in the room, either metaphorically or literally, and they decided that as adult children of alcoholics they needed a program. And then after a while people realized you don't just have to have alcoholic parents to have the traits, those laundry list traits that I mentioned. So it could be. You grew up with a parent who was chronically ill, has a mental illness, has a personality disorder, has a gambling problem, they're hyper religious, they're super militaristic, it's, you know, abusive, violent. So ACA is, honestly, it's, a trauma recovery program where you reparent yourself and you use the 12 steps to recover.
Speaker 2:I didn't understand that I had trauma. What I later learned is that what I have is called relational trauma. So most people tend to think of trauma as what is sometimes called big T trauma. So you were in a war, you were raped, you were in a hurricane, something like that, like a blunt trauma. Little T trauma is what I think of as like the continual, like drip, drip, drip, of emotional invalidation, which was my kind of trauma.
Speaker 2:And for the first six months I was in the program of trauma and for the first six months I was in the program. I was, like you know, I clearly didn't have it as bad as other people in this room. I didn't get the shit kicked out of me, I didn't get my bones broken, I didn't get raped, I didn't get burned. I didn't get told I was a piece of shit. I lived in a house. We always had food, but I was emotionally invalidated my entire life. I was gaslighted by my parents. I didn't know until recovery that I was literally confused my entire childhood Because we would say this is what we're like and we wouldn't be like that, or we would talk about mundane stuff and we wouldn't talk about big, important things, or something horrible would happen and we wouldn't discuss it. And it was and I you know it was just like well. And for me, jessica, the worst effect of growing up in a dysfunctional family is questioning my own perception. Is this real? Did this happen? And if you can't believe your own perception, how are you ever going to have a high quality life, like, how are you ever going to live well if you have that kind of a life.
Speaker 2:So ACA has impacted me dramatically, and so I will say, you know, I mentioned how I did all this like self-help stuff before, and then I got in recovery. And here's how I think about it All of that therapy, self-help workshops, and then I got in recovery. And here's how I think about it. All of that therapy, self-help workshops, blah, blah, blah. I feel like that stuff scratched the surface of the iceberg of my life and 12-step recovery melted the iceberg of my life.
Speaker 2:So for me, the 12 steps are where it's at, and I think there are several reasons why they work for me and for many people. One, it's a spiritual program, so you don't have to believe in God to participate, but you do have to believe that there is some power outside of yourself that is greater than you that you can seek support from. That could be the power of the group. Two, it's a group process, so you are connecting with other people who've been in the same state as you and they're not anymore, and so they can share with you. Here's what I did. It might work for you, maybe it won't. All those therapists I worked with all those years I didn't know anything about them. I have no idea if they could actually identify with me. And all this stuff was happening in my head there was no like, and none of them helped me identify the major things that came out in my first two years of recovery. And then the third reason I think that 12-step recovery works is because it's got this stepwise process. There are 12 steps that you do in order. It's a process that has been proven for decades to work for millions of people, and so all of those things, I think, make it really different.
Speaker 2:And so for me, I grew up as an agnostic until I was in my mid-30s. I read the book Conversations with God and I became a believer, at least in my conception of God. And actually in the beginning I would write G-O-D-D-E rather than G-O-D, because it was like halfway between God and goddess, because the idea of God having gender just makes no sense to me. Now I just say God and I spell it God. I don't really mean it. I often say he. I don't really mean it, it's just easier.
Speaker 2:But when I got into recovery at 52, having identified by then as a spiritual person for a number of years my spirituality blossomed because I started using God in ways that I never had before. So I asked for guidance and got it. I turned things over and actually had them taken. I remember the first time I don't remember what it was I was like I'm handing and actually I didn't hand things to God, I shoved them to God and I remember the first time something was taken from me. It was only like three seconds but I was like whoa wait, that can happen. Like I don't have to have the weight of the world, I don't have to have an answer for everything, I don't have to know how to do everything, I can just let things go and not worry all the time. And so I do that all the time now and my life is just, you know, magnified in how great it is. And obviously I named my business higher power, coaching and consulting. So it's.
Speaker 1:You know it's part of me. What you said was really true about a 12 step program, which I think draws a lot of people in, who, who, whether we're affected by hypocrisy of the church or whatever there, or however they grew up or they didn't grow up with a religious background. There's just so many different ways that people get to God, and so I think with the 12 step, it gives you the space to believe how you. You can come in as you are.
Speaker 1:And um, eventually you will find a God of your understanding, but it's that, like psychological space, that they give you to to believe in in whatever you can, and you can even come in if you don't believe in anything. I love what you said about the 12 steps, but going through all of them all 12, because at the very end, it says having had a spiritual waking as a result of these steps.
Speaker 1:So you can and have that away. If you come in and you say, well, nothing's happening, I'm on six, I still don't believe in God.
Speaker 2:I know nothing.
Speaker 1:Right where you're supposed to be, because it literally says as a result of so the importance of completing them is really find a lot of freedom and larger spiritual life too.
Speaker 2:I think that's a big component of long-term recovery.
Speaker 1:You know if you're done with the steps and you're moving on. You're helping people, Enlarging your own spiritual life personally is where it's really at when you have long-term sobriety in any area, yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2:And since you brought up step 12, I'd like to say something about that. So my understanding of a spiritual awakening is that I can now be, see, think, do and have that which I could not be, see, think, do and have before recovery. In other words, I am changed, and if that is not spiritual waking, I don't know what is. Another part of step 12 is we carry the message to those who still suffer. So I am the message. You know, like people who knew me before and know me now know I am changed, so I don't even have to say anything. Somebody comes to my attention and they seem like they might qualify for the program. Then I want to share with them. Hey, you know I used to be 100 pounds heavier. Or you know I never had a healthy relationship until I got into recovery. Do you want to hear what happened for me? And then the other part of step 12 is we practice these principles in all our affairs, and that's that enlarged spirituality that you're talking about. So technically it means we practice the principles that are connected to all the 12 steps and 12 traditions in all our affairs. But what that means is when I live a life in alignment with spiritual principles. I'm so much more likely to stay sober, abstinent, etc. Cetera, because I'm connected to something greater than myself and we're protected when we're connected. That's another reason why 12-step recovery is so important, because I don't care why you're in recovery, whether it's addiction or compulsion or obsession. People in recovery are super good at isolating and humans are wired for connection. We need other people to really feel part of the human family, and so that's such a gift from recovery.
Speaker 2:And I know for me before recovery I looked on the outside like I had my shit together, and in many respects I did, but internally I was a mess I never had. The one thing I did know, jessica, was I did not have ever a healthy romantic relationship, turns out. I didn't really have healthy friendships and I also didn't have healthy relationships with my colleagues. I didn't know that until I got into recovery. And then I mentioned earlier that, like, none of the huge things that came out in the first two years of recovery were ever identified with any of the therapy and the self-help and the introspection and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:So the fact that I was codependent, the fact that I have no boundaries, the fact that I suffered from victim mentality which for me personally was the biggest mindset shift of recovery the fact that I lied all the time. I lied about alcohol, I lied about food, I lied about relationships, but mostly I lied in the people pleasing department and I said things were okay when they weren't. And then when you asked me to do something, I'd say yes, but then I'd bitch about you behind your back and I'd be resentful to you. You know I was not able to accept. This is what's happening.
Speaker 2:I fought against reality all the time. So and there's more, you know that came out in recovery, but like none of those gigantic things ever, ever came up in all those years of therapy and self help. So this is another reason why, for me, the 12 steps are where it's at and that's why I started my podcast, because there's all this wisdom in 12 step recovery that's not making its way out into the world, and so I want to get it out into the world. Whether you're in recovery or not, you know there's all kinds of good stuff there.
Speaker 1:You know you brought up something really good. So I think one of the main things that stuck out for me in 12 step work is that when you look at yourself and your life and your behaviors, you keep the focus on yourself.
Speaker 2:And where was it?
Speaker 1:Where were?
Speaker 2:you at fault.
Speaker 1:That's a huge change. It's not where well, he did this to me and they did this to me. No, no no, where were you at fault? And that went along the lines of like, if you were in a domestic relationship, a domestically abusive relationship, so well, how can you find fault in that? This person, you know, abused me. Well, the fault was that 10 years, 20 years later, you're still carrying it. And it's affecting every single relationship that you touch because you weren't able to let it go, and that's what we're going to do here.
Speaker 2:So it's such like a hands-on take responsibility for your life and then go out and be that good partner, that good sister, that good friend.
Speaker 1:That's how I think, how it really changes you. Yeah, agreed the spiritual part of it is ultimately where it's at, Because when those principles you talked about perseverance, courage, service, love they become the like dominant behaviors in your life, Like it's a complete flip. And when you're living your life good, you're less likely to want to destroy it. And when you're, when you're guilty, you're. You're wanting to cover that up, You're wanting to numb that.
Speaker 2:But when you're guilty, you're. You're wanting to cover that up, you're wanting to numb that but when you're not doing those things, you're free and you start living right, and it's, it just continues.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. That, um, like looking for my part in thing is the way we refer to it and recovery that you were talking about. For me that was really how I came out of victim mentality because I had to look for my part. But I want to say something about the way ACA does the 12 steps, because in my other recovery in Overeaters Anonymous, we use Alcoholics Anonymous literature and I'm like well-versed in the AA Big Book and you are not allowed to look at anybody else and what anybody did or anything like that. But in ACA we look at alcoholism as a family disease and it's intergenerational dysfunction that is being passed down whether people are drinking or not. So if your grandparents are alcoholics, you qualify for ACA and, for example, because there's patterns that your parents internalized, even if your grandparents went to AA.
Speaker 1:But what we say in ACA is.
Speaker 2:We know you are a product of your environment, so we have to look at the family system. But what we say in ACA is we take a blameless family inventory Because, in essence, we have become our parents, because they passed our patterns and so many people say I'm never going to be like my parents and then 20, 30 years later, their parents' voices or words are coming out of their mouth, their actions and all that stuff. So what we do in ACA in step four, which is the searching and fearless moral inventory because there are actually 12 inventories nine of them are about the family and three of them are about you. So you still get at what you did by way of this inventory, and I'll give an example by looking at the family system. So what happened to me actually? Let me just say it like that In ACA, it's what happened to me In OA. It was what I did. So I still get at what I did by way of what happened to me.
Speaker 2:So what happened to me, jessica, is I grew up in a family that engaged in indirect communication. So you didn't ever talk to the person you had difficulty with. You talked to everybody around them and you didn't talk about the problem. You talked about the person, and so this was a communication pattern laid down in my family before I was born. So there was no hope of me growing up at that family knowing that direct communication was even a thing. So what did I do? I gossiped. Now I didn't know.
Speaker 2:I was shocked when I got into recovery to find that gossip was one of my worst defects of character. And so when I got in recovery, I had been working for my same boss at Yale University for 17 years. I loved her dearly and she also drove me fucking crazy and I basically bitched about her behind her back for 17 years. And that is the definition of gossip talking negatively about someone behind their back for years on end. But somehow even though I'm not dumb I didn't recognize that as gossip, and I was astonished. I want to say, when I stopped gossiping, I'm going to say that I stopped like 90%, I didn't 100% but my resentment against her went way, way, way, way, way, way down. I was like, oh my God, I'm the problem. And when I say I'm the problem, it's not in a self-deprecating way, it's an empowering way, because if I'm the problem, then I can be the solution. So when I stopped gossiping about her, not only did my resentment go down, but it had a ripple effect on my team and my larger project and it was astonishing to me the effect of that. It was just. It was really incredible.
Speaker 2:And another thing, because my core wound is codependent for me, one of the most powerful things that I learned in recovery was to build healthy boundaries, and that's ultimately why I became a boundaries coach, because it was such a game changer for me, because boundaries permeate every area of our lives and I simply did not know really who I was. I was a chameleon, I was a people pleaser, I was a yes woman. So, for example, when I was a young person, I drank beer because it was cheap. And then in my 20s I started dating a guy who was kind of a wine connoisseur. So I started to drink wine.
Speaker 2:And then I dated a guy who drank Jack Daniels. So I drank Jack Daniels and Diet Coke. And then I dated a guy who was a beer connoisseur. So I learned I actually like Belgian beers, so I couldn't even have my own damn drink. You know what I'm saying. Like I just so much of me was I think of as like I was up for negotiation. So the boundaries of Barb were negotiable and learning how to build healthy boundaries is like figuring out like, who am I? What do I actually like, not like, want, need, prefer? I didn't really know that. I was never asking myself that because I was so focused on what does he need, what does she need, what do they need? What does the situation need? What does the organization need?
Speaker 1:That's a really good point. So if anyone's listening and they can relate to that, then that's another word that people may say. Well, I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't really know boundaries or I don't that's self-helpy or I'm not going to do that, like if what you're saying like hits, then take a look at it, go beyond the title, go beyond the word, so you can find some like I love when you said like I didn't even know what I liked.
Speaker 2:I'm just blending into what they're doing. It's like so real with alcohol, with drugs, with food, with cigarettes, with toxic situations, toxic relationships, putting myself in harm's way, not taking care of myself. So now, health is a super important value of mine, so my standard is health. So I set up boundaries foods, I pay for things like yoga and meditation. I set aside time to do yoga every day. I set aside time. So those are boundaries in my life. So when you put things in your budget, a budget is a boundary. When you set aside time for things, that's a boundary. I don't go. I mostly don't socialize over food the way that I used to. I'll go and have coffee with you or go for a walk with you, but I prefer not to like go for a meal with you.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's how you got to the eight years, Cause you, you put those things in place for your health you know, right, exactly Right, and, and I am of the opinion- Standard. Yeah, and I am of the opinion. I love the word standard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I am of the opinion that and experience that it's really difficult to follow through on any kind of personal development program if you don't have healthy boundaries, because you're not going to follow through. People with poor boundaries typically say yes to things they don't want to do and they neglect themselves. They're typically run ragged, they're exhausted and I was astonished how much more energy became available to me as I built healthy boundaries. You know for many, there's many reasons for that.
Speaker 1:I say I love it because it's hitting like. I can relate to that. You know I can relate to the exhaustion and the you know, and the do do do. And so I think other people will be able to too, and I like the word standard because I get caught up on words. I you know, I just I do.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people do. I don't want that word with me.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, but I've learned this year to go beyond that, and it was when I heard for the first time like we had talked about being abstinent from certain foods that never crossed my mind that that would be a recipe for success in eating healthy.
Speaker 1:Because I just didn't think that food had that much power. You know to, but you know, in getting older and things changing and everything it certainly does. So if I want to be healthy, I have to say, yes, that does have that much power and whatever you're doing isn't working, so maybe you do need to look at it in a different way. So, yeah, just to go beyond the words and can really bring some new freedom, because we evolve. You know we're. I'm not who I was at 18.
Speaker 2:Right, oh God, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm like a 30, you know and and I'm not who I am now, so it's just, it's really good. You've given a lot of stuff, so what would you say to you had talked about? We don't do this by?
Speaker 1:ourselves in 12 step and I think that's really important, because firsthand example and this is such a great this is this is one of the real pros to 12 step recovery, because everybody's doing this and they're doing it for themselves, so they take it very seriously. I can call one of my best friends right now and start up a conversation about someone and she'll within a minute say, I don't know. That's kind of like gossiping.
Speaker 1:And I'm like oh, is it? And she's like yeah, and I'm like, oh, okay, and we just go to something else, cause it's'm like oh, is it? And she's like yeah, and I'm like, oh, okay, and we just go to something else, cause it's just like she's just just told me like we're not, we don't really do that, and I was like wow, okay, thanks, you know.
Speaker 2:I just didn't even know or say I bring to the table.
Speaker 1:Like a bunch of girlfriends are sitting there and I'll bring something about my husband. They don't ever say sit there and have like a 10 minute session on how he's not a good person. It just doesn't work. They sit there and start telling me how to be a better wife and get home and start working on it.
Speaker 2:You know like it's a complete reversal.
Speaker 1:It's incredible, like I want to sit on people who are going to tell me how to be a better friend, a better wife, a better daughter instead of sitting there talking for 20 minutes about the problem and how the problem just doesn't get you anywhere. That's really catapulted my life forward.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, and I you know, as you're saying, that I remember I had a couple of friends because that's what me and my women friends did was sit around and bitch about our boyfriends, husbands, girlfriends, whatever and I had a couple of friends who literally never talked about their husbands and I was like what the fuck's wrong with them? And now that I'm in recovery I'm like, oh, what was right with them?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know um like if.
Speaker 2:I need to complain about something, I pick someone like my sponsor and I contain it to that one person. Mostly I'm not complaining, I'm processing, but every once in a while I'm like I just need to vent, and I actually do that with my sweetheart too. Like I say to him you get to hear stuff that nobody else gets to hear, cause I just want to get this off my chest to another person. But I'm not walking around in the world saying this stuff, you know. But mostly I deal with it with myself, my higher power, with journaling, processing, that sort of thing, and I learned, like this is what they're like and I can either accept that they're like this or, you know, maybe spend less time with them or maybe not spend any time with them, if someone's really bothering me that much.
Speaker 1:Right and that's a great point and some people are like that. But another thing that a 12-step program I think teaches is that a lot of times we have it wrong. So, for example, like I used to be a writer, like for magazines and newspapers, so in newspaper print it's factual or it does not get published. Nobody wants to hear about what I think.
Speaker 2:In magazines.
Speaker 1:It's flowery and bulleted and it has to be. It's different. It's like bubbly Same thing with what they teach in a 12-step program. It's like you'll say something about a scenario or a situation with another person and if there's not facts underneath it, there's no reason to be talking about it, because I could be completely wrong and for years I lived my life on what I thought other people were thinking and then when I? Started to get. Well, it was like that could absolutely have not been true.
Speaker 2:Yeah what if I was wrong, why are you going?
Speaker 1:to talk about a situation or somebody, but it could absolutely not be true about them. Yeah, it's not only unfair, but think about how many times that was done to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you just don't do it. It's a waste of time. It could be a complete farce, like not even true.
Speaker 2:Well, it creates chaos.
Speaker 1:And it creates chaos.
Speaker 2:So you just don't do it.
Speaker 1:That was a was a real gift of of a 12 step program for me is that I could be completely wrong. Like not only on the big things, but maybe five times a day, and that really freed me up to just live my life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And you know, jessica, sometimes it's not just people that we're wrong about. I'll tell you, one of the great epiphanies that I had was driving so right early in my recovery, I was in a traffic jam and we were crawling along, and the third time that I went to pump on the brakes, the thought came into my head I need to leave more space between cars. And I was like, oh my God, that's my program, it's working. I need to leave more space. I'm the problem. Oh, leave more space. I'm the problem. Oh my God, I'm the problem, I'm the problem, right. And so I had this like cascade of understanding of like, oh my God, I'm acting like there should not be traffic on the highway. Meanwhile, highways were built for traffic, so I'm acting like well, there shouldn't be traffic on the highway, at least not when I'm on there.
Speaker 2:And I literally became a different driver from that moment on. I stopped driving above the speed limit. I stopped. I didn't do like the really quick weaving in and out, but I was mostly a left lane driver. Now I mostly drive at the speed limit in the right hand lane and if someone pulls out in front of me, I either slow down or I speed up or I swerve and I don't give them my serenity, because guess what I've pulled out in front of people before? I'm a regular human, I'm not a devil, I'm not Satan. You know like we tend to just demonize people that do things like that and it's like they made a mistake, you know? And why are you going to give them your serenity? You don't even know them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is like you know, it's like kind of blowing my mind, like opening my brain up to kind of go about the world differently today, right Cause you forget about these things.
Speaker 2:This is a practice. This isn't like well. This is why we need to talk recovery all the time.
Speaker 1:It's like it's, it's a real practice to to try to be a good human, you know it doesn't, it's not like the natural. The natural is like get out of my way. I'm coming through Like hurry up. Get in the car and the harder part is like hey, no, we're going to slow down, no need to hurry.
Speaker 1:They're not in my way, I just I need to back off. So the natural inclination is like kind of challenged. But listen, if I think the biggest thing that I love about 12 step is that when I look around like people are really trying like they're trying.
Speaker 2:It's a daily like.
Speaker 1:I may get up and screw it up every day, but I'm going to try again. I'm going to be like Whoa. Like I have some sort of awareness about the fact that I'm. I'm have an inclination to be mostly not a nice you know like not the best person you know, so at least you're giving it a shot. What more can you ask for? Right yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, when I tell people like I pray, I meditate, I do readings, I do journaling, you know I meditate twice a day and I, you know, I pray and I journal, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they're like, oh my God, how do you have time for that? I'm like listen, I don't not have time for that, because I like my life this way and that's what keeps me centered on what matters in life, Not whether there's traffic on the highway or you said something that pissed me off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. There's definitely a softening of the edges there when you, when you get with, get with God in the morning and you know, but it's a once again, it's a practice, it's it's not like everybody's hitting the, you know, getting getting out of bed and hitting their devotion, or you know, it's just like it's like you have to carve out time, just like you do to eat, just like you do to sit down next to your child and like help them with something.
Speaker 2:Or know, go to the bathroom.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, it's like has to be kind of built in.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you said carving out time. I would call that living on purpose, and that's what I think of as building healthy boundaries is you start to live purposely, you make decisions. This is what's important to me. So I'm going to put boundaries in place so that I can promote and support those things that are important to me, so that I can promote and support those things that are important to me. That's living on purpose. So in ACA, we say we become actors rather than reactors. In OA, we say we act on life rather than reacting to it. I didn't know that I was reacting to life but that's all I was doing.
Speaker 1:I had heard somebody say once the difference between a reaction and a response is a pause. Wow, okay, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Pausing is my number one tool of recovery and it was really difficult to get there to be able to do that. But I think really it's pausing and breathing, and here's how I think about that. Jessica, the reason I'm reacting is because I'm in lizard brain, I've been triggered by something and so I'm not really thinking. Because I can't? Because when you're in fight or flight mode you can't think, because the frontal lobe, the higher order thinking part of the brain, is inaccessible when we're in fight or flight mode, because the energy used to think is given to the fight or flee energy. And so when you pause and you calm down and you catch your breath, you can then think, so you can respond thoughtfully, purposefully.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, there was another. I like that a lot and it's definitely good practice. Another thing that was said to me once was hey, you know, like think about my own home. I have a family of five, so I'm often giving a lot of advice and orders and running around and you know, someone said to me hey, you know, if you need to put a note on your fridge, just tape it on there. It says you know you're not giving advice for one week, unless somebody asked for it.
Speaker 1:Because so often I was putting all my advice on them you know, and I thought, wow, you know, my whole week would be so quiet, cause I think nobody would really ask me cause they, they really want to do it themselves.
Speaker 2:So just back up, back off of them a little bit.
Speaker 1:Let them get out the door and they'll be fine yeah.
Speaker 2:That's a hallmark of people with poor boundaries is they give lots of unsolicited advice. That was totally neat, and the way I think of it now, jessica, is please get people's consent before foisting your help or advice on them, or, better yet, like you said, wait until they ask. And I love the word consent because, like most people, when they think of the word consent it has to do with some kind of like sexual behavior, and we're very clear, like I get to live this body life the way that I want to.
Speaker 1:So what would that sound like so?
Speaker 2:it would sound like you know, Jessica, I have some ideas about what you just said, because I have some experience like that. Would you like to hear them? Or, you know, I have some thoughts about that. Are you interested in hearing it? Or are you just venting, or would you like me to give you some feedback?
Speaker 1:Great, I love that.
Speaker 2:Consent Ask if they want the help before, or, better yet, wait until they ask. And even if they ask, you don't have to say yes. So if you have been directing someone's life for years and you're tired of it and you want them to live their own life, if they say well, you know, I really want your feedback. I could say things like you know, I'm sure you'll figure it out. Oh no, but I really want to know what you have to say. Well, I'm not sure what to say, even if you've always known what to say. You can say like I'm sure you'll figure it out. Like you've got all the tools you know, just put it back on them if you are tired of giving advice.
Speaker 1:So if you're someone who always knows what to say, what a difference to say. I'm not sure what to say that could change. You could stick with that and see how things change and if you like, the change you see then you could start implementing things.
Speaker 2:So how did?
Speaker 1:this talk. Just talk a little bit and, if you could, about what you do and where people can find you during the week. This has been a really valuable conversation. So if anybody I know I've been taking notes. So if anybody wants to find you further, I'd love for them, at this point, to go ahead and do that.
Speaker 2:So my favorite place to hang on on social media is Instagram. I'm at Higher Power Coaching. Since you're already listening to a podcast in your app, you can just hop on over to Fragmented to Whole Life Lessons from 12-Step Recovery, or online you can go to fragmentedtowholecom. And then I am a boundaries coach.
Speaker 2:I tend to work with professional women and they're like 40 to 70 who look like they have it together on the outside, but internally they're a mess. They might be enabling an adult child or a partner who is either a substance user and or has a mental health problem. They've probably had difficulty in relationships. They might be in 12-step recovery, but not necessarily, and they're really tired of saying yes to people all the time when they really want to say no. So there, if you go to my website, it's higherpowercccom and there's a menu that says my issue is. And if you go to the one that says boundaries, that has a free downloadable handout called tips and scripts for saying no. There's a free article about what is enmeshment and how to get out of it, and I have a playlist of over 30 episodes of my podcast specifically about boundaries, linked on that site. So I've been doing my podcast for over five years I've got 260 something episodes, but over 10% of them are on boundaries, because that's my area of expertise.
Speaker 1:Such an insightful conversation, so many resources. I thank you so much for being here today and I encourage listeners to go and check out your website and click on those free resources and get started what a great conversation.
Speaker 2:I appreciate the questions and comments and all that stuff. This is great. Thank you so much to come To view our featured author of the month or to become a guest yourself, visit wwwjessicastepanoviccom.